In a perfect world, there could be a valid mass in a war zone, with bombs exploding with clowns and liturgical dance, music by a rap quartet singing patriotic music, ushers in halloween costumes and sitar trance music playing... while the EMHCs wear unitards and twirl like whirling dirvishes.....Comments?
as long as the Priest consecrates the host and wine, it IS the Body and Blood of Christ.
I sometimes think the trappings are there to trap the mind.
and we shouldn't let it be so. The Eucharist is the everything. everything else is minor details.
Wednesday, October 31, 2007
Say what??
I came across this post elsewhere on the Internet and just had to share it with you. Pretty scary logic, isn't it? As long as the consecration is valid, liturgical abuses don't matter?
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16 comments:
WHERE on earth did you find that quote?!
FOUL!!! I am absolutely dumbfounded and can't even begin to know where to start. PG, if you find things like *that* on the internet, do not pass go, do not wait around to collect some fabled $200, just run to the nearest Holy Water font and scream "Satan leave me!"
wow, that is scary.
Liturgical minimalism at its worst.
If you ever meet these people, you can say this:
Homosexuals can engage in sexual relations at Mass in San Fran, and if the priest is valid, the Mass is valid, no? It is just a trapping after all, don't let those gays distract you from Jesus!
That is of course totally absurd, and you can't find an NO person who would really sit through that, except maybe Bishop Niederauer. If Brkback mtn was powerful, why not have at Mass? (forgive my typing, one hand is holding a baby!)
Anyhow, no NO person will endure that because it is an offense to Jesus Christ, almighty God, public decency and morals, etc. The quote you give is little different than my absurd example, they are both offenses to God in the sacred liturgy. The difference is the person who said that is merely willing to say some offenses against Jesus Christ are just mental trappings, and some are just unbearable. But they are exactly the same, violations of the sacredness of the liturgy. If an abuse is inherently offensive to God, as the Vatican maintains in all its do nothing documents on abuses, then they all are. In which case, why are you enduring any? It is like saying forgive me Father for I will sin. It is like saying I will go to a party where I know people are using drugs and fornicating, but I'm just going to have a good time and be good, not getting distracted by these trappings.
Better to strangle a priest by his rainbow stole than tolerate one offense to Jesus Christ in the sacred liturgy.
You know, PG, I've had some time to let this ruminate and I love what Athanasius has said... it reminds me of the story of the Dad who chastised his young adult son for the music he was listening to because they lyrics degraded women, albeit in a subtle way. The young man argued that the lyrics were only a very small part of the song but that the melody and beat were so good that the son just overlooked the questionable lyrics in order to enjoy the rest of the song.
So, the Dad baked brownies and invited the son to eat. As the son was eating, Dad mentioned that he had included "just a little bit" of dog poop in the mix but it was likely that none of it actually made it into the brownie that the son was eating, at least not enough that it should ruin that particular piece.
My husband and I are both converts with 'colorful' histories. Dh's past includes a great love for heavy metal music. I remind him of this brownie story every time he is tempted to change the radio station in the car. I don't want any poop in my brownies OR my music... especially not my Mass!!!
Feisty Muse
Feisty Muse - dog poop brownies???!!!
Ha! That's a great analogy. BTW your rosary booklet is in the mail...
Athanasius, you bring up some good points, as always. I may have to refer back to these two comments for future ammunition against those crazy neos!
That is how a heretic reasons.
i hope the dog poop story isn't copyrighted ... its gonna spread like s*** in the fan.
Hi PG! I was on that very thread today, lol! I just shook the virtual dust off my virtual sandals (shaking my head). So much catechesis is needed, so little time...
I do believe that the Eucharist is at the center of Catholic worship, but that doesn't mean we can turn the Church into a house of ill repute!!
"while the EMHCs wear unitards and twirl like whirling dervishes....." What???
Tom
I sometimes think...
...too highly of your own opinions...
Mt 18:17 if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Chutzpah!
I'm afraid to say I have to agree with the quote...though in a qualified way. Christ IS the center of our worship, and if the priest is validly ordained and validly consecrate the Eucharist it IS Christ. Whether or not there are painted homosexuals being sacrilegious doesn't bear on the validity of the consecration or Christ's presence.
WHAT THE QUOTED POSTER IS NOT SAYING:
He's not saying that it OUGHT to be irreverent. In fact, he says quite the opposite. He's not saying that he'll just "go along" with whatever abuse. He's saying that the Eucharist is Christ, and the Eucharist is the source, center and summit of our worship.
My qualified agreement is that the rest is just "trappings" and we shouldn't be "trapped" by them. I think that's going a bit too far. Lex orandi, lex credendi, as they say -- deviate and you start to get a different credendi. It OUGHT to be reverential and it OUGHT to be celebrated in accordance with the rubrics.
That said, no matter the other abuses which occur it's still Christ and I wouldn't walk out on Him. Your mileage may vary.
God Bless
I'm afraid to say I have to agree with the quote...though in a qualified way. Christ IS the center of our worship, and if the priest is validly ordained and validly consecrate the Eucharist it IS Christ. Whether or not there are painted homosexuals being sacrilegious doesn't bear on the validity of the consecration or Christ's presence.
Although what you say about the Eucharist being valid is true, when St. Augustine said that a wicked priest was still capable of consecrating the Host, he wasn't being dismissive about corruption..."Well, we got wicked priests, there's nothing we can or shall do about it...'cause it's all about Jesus, Amen!" No, he was not a Protestant Pietist liberal. This is Gospel and liturgical reducttionism near its worst, which bases the weight of its argument on a technicality.
WHAT THE QUOTED POSTER IS NOT SAYING:
He's not saying that it OUGHT to be irreverent. In fact, he says quite the opposite. He's not saying that he'll just "go along" with whatever abuse. He's saying that the Eucharist is Christ, and the Eucharist is the source, center and summit of our worship.
True, but did not Christ leave us the Church and give unto them the Traditions of teaching and liturgy. Although Christ is why we even go to Mass...if it's not performed properly...we could have "another Christ."
My qualified agreement is that the rest is just "trappings" and we shouldn't be "trapped" by them. I think that's going a bit too far. Lex orandi, lex credendi, as they say -- deviate and you start to get a different credendi. It OUGHT to be reverential and it OUGHT to be celebrated in accordance with the rubrics.
Amen...but "ought" just opens the doors...because nobody is seemingly held accountable anymore....
That said, no matter the other abuses which occur it's still Christ and I wouldn't walk out on Him. Your mileage may vary.
I would find another parish.
Dominus vobiscum!
What's been happening to me is that I've been taking so much inventory at Masses as to whether this or that is an abuse, that I seem to be missing the point. The good (pointing out abuses) can be the enemy of the best (coming into the Real Presence of Jesus in His Body and Blood).
I'm not saying this to justify the actions cited in the quote, but the pendulum does swing both ways.
We must forget, either, that our Lord warns very sternly, in the book of Revelation (which I believe, Scripture still holds some authority in the Catholic Church), that if individual churches continue to allow heresies, immorality, wrong worship, etc. then he will remove the candlestick and it will no longer be a catholic church to God (Rev. 2-4). If that takes place, and the warning of Christ is true, then the sacrament would be invalid, just as it is in Protestant churches.
"It is written further, 'Thou shalt not put the Lord thy God to the test'" (Matt. 4:7).
Pax,
Dave
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